After the three posts (here, here, and here) I wrote during our scene Tuesday (a scene that consisted of conversations and my being assigned to write those posts), two things happened. Three things, actually:
- Graylion commented on the third post about how disturbed he (she?) was by what I had written, and how much he (she?) feared for me.
- Jos’s New Lover X, who seems reasonably experienced in the bdsm community, told him (as I understand it) that what we were doing was misguided.
- Jos started to ask, “Are we crazy?”
Well, if we were, it wouldn’t be the first time. Someone recently said that we must kink on dysfunction, or we wouldn’t have so much of it. I actually disagree, for the most part, that we are dysfunctional. I think we are highly functional – so highly functional that we get into all kinds of crazy scrapes as a result. I do think we are both drama queens who are into heavy relationship work.
I’d like to describe what I think are the current understandings and desires between us, and I’d love to hear from commenters whether we actually do sound insane or not. I’m sure this description will be incomplete, and it may turn out wrong in some particulars, since I’m going to be speaking for Joscelin as well, but, if nothing else, he may find it illuminating to see what I think is going on.
Joscelin and I had a whole 3.5-year relationship (documented in the rest of this blog) in which he was my slave approximately 99% of the time, with varying degrees (some quite high) of success. It stopped working recently, and he broke up with me, which seemed like a good idea to me at the time, but ended up filling me with regret and heartbreak.
The few times that we switched and I was on the bottom, it was very hot for me, but also challenging, and in some cases I was left feeling angry or disappointed at how things had gone, feelings that are not uncommon for me after having a scene on the bottom with anyone. I am sexually submissive to the bone – certainly I never have an orgasm without thinking about bottoming – but I am also allergic to sexual submission when it comes from a woman. (I’m not proud of this.) It kind of grosses me out and raises my hackles. This effect is very mild when it comes to other women, but can be pretty strong when the woman involved is myself.
Joscelin sees himself as a slave, or at least he historically has. His fantasies, however, are all about female submission. In his younger days (and perhaps now, I’m not sure) he always was a woman in his fantasies. However, he seems uninterested in being or being made feminine in real life.
I have never quite hit Joscelin’s buttons, in the general sense. He says he did not have New Relationship Energy with me, though as I recall he simulated it extremely well, so that I had no idea I was alone in it at the time. He often hasn’t been sure whether he loved me, but at other times, he clearly does love me very much. He’s been a great friend to me always, by far the best lover of my life, and I’m usually content with his feelings towards me. (Lest he should sound like a jerk, this is honestly not game-playing on his part. He’s just a confused little guiltbucket.)
So here we are, broken up. We had a scene with me on the bottom and afterwards, I just couldn’t let go of the role. And he let me stay, and encouraged me to stay, and we’re trying to figure out (partly) whether we want some kind of a committed relationship, or whether we want to just keep living together, being friends, and having hot sex however we like it at that moment.
It’s momentous for me. I’ve never gone this far in submission–not even close–and it’s been very moving and very hot. And at times it has been very difficult.
We were talking yesterday, I think it was, about how Joscelin does not trust me, partly (I think) because I say so many different things. It was a hard conversation for me. He also doesn’t believe I know the meaning of commitment, which is fair. Eventually I said, eyes closed, “Then let me earn my collar. And don’t listen to what I say, since you don’t trust me. Just judge me by my actions.” And that is what we are doing right now.
These are my motivations, as best I understand them, in no particular order:
- I’m in love with Joscelin and I want to be in any kind of relationship with him. This is a particularly intense kind, which suits me well. I want him to love me and keep me.
- Submitting is super hot. So is being controlled and dominated.
- I’m curious whether I can actually be submissive on anything like a long-term basis, and what that would be like. I honestly can’t quite imagine myself choosing to do this “forever,” but I don’t want to lose the opportunity to try doing it. I don’t have doms lining up at my door to try owning me, and nobody understands me like Jos. I have crazy trust for him – maybe enough to overcome my own prickliness.
- I’m attracted to the idea of someone being in a godlike role to me. I want to feel that someone deeply understands me, accepts me, and is strongly, irresistibly pushing me in a positive direction. I want someone to “turn my tin into flesh.” I want to be unable to lie or hide anything about myself. I want to learn humility, get over myself, learn to be neither proud nor ashamed.
- Did I mention that it is hot?
Some of Joscelin’s motivations, as best I understand them, are as follows.
- He’s attracted to my “turning tin into flesh” idea.
- He’s always been interested in my relationship to my own submission, since I’ve always been sexually submissive (or been able to be; obviously I was dominant towards him for most of our relationship), but have also always been conflicted and somewhat in denial about it. He wants to push me to figure out what I want and what I am. I think from his perspective I am a self-hating submissive and he wants to teach me to love and be proud of that part of myself.
- He’s very attracted to the idea of the slave who knows her place and occupies it perfectly, who submits graciously and willingly and is beautiful doing it. The idea of taking someone and transforming/training her into that person is very appealing.
- It’s ridiculously hot.
So that’s where we are – just trying this crazy thing. How crazy does it sound, folks? I’m genuinely curious.
Well, let me say first, that I love your blog (which I have probably said somewhere before, though I don’t comment much). I think your openness and honesty is amazing, and it is wonderful to have the chance to read your thoughts and feelings in such depth, since it has really taught me a lot about myself too – the amount of times I’ve thought “Ohh, /that’s/ what that feeling was, and why it was there”!
I also don’t think you are crazy, not by my way of seeing it. I think you have had a wonderful relationship, and have the potential for another one with a different dynamic. I think some of the things you’re talking about at the moment are quite extreme, but I’m fine with relationships that have some extreme dynamics or parts to them. You seem to be exploring parts of yourself that you didn’t really know existed, and seeing how far you can take it and what you want, and I think that sort of self-exploration is both necessary and desirable, whether it is extreme or not. I read the comment you refer to, and to be honest I don’t quite see where s/he is coming from. I don’t feel expert enough on the topic to identify what is abuse and what isn’t, but while it seems that a lot of the time you have been in deep submissive headspace, you don’t seem to have lost your ability to think and analyse the situation, and I believe that with the discussions you have with Jos all the time, and the past you share, it would be very difficult for this to become abusive.
D/s has always been about the emotional side for me, and I found your descriptions of your stream-of-consciousness scene, and the way you are going deep inside what you feel with all of this, makes it amazing and what this is all about – that sort of intimacy. Your submission is beautiful.
The only thing that slightly concerned me was something you mentioned in one of your posts about Jos wanting to degrade you, which I find could be quite dangerous. I may have gotten completely the wrong impression, since I don’t think you went into details, but I always find that to be something that can be emotionally risky. In a scene, it can be hot and everything, but if you want him to “turn your tin into flesh” then I’d be a little bit concerned about the role degradation might play in that, as the way I picture it, it could be damaging for self-esteem etc. But I guess it depends on your definition of degradation and the activity as well…I mean, there’s a difference between saying “You are my slave, therefore you occupy this space in my life and you will serve me in these ways, which are good and please me etc” and saying “You are my slave, therefore you are nothing and insignificant”. I guess part of me may just associate degradation with negative phrases, that make someone small and insignificant, when I guess it could be used to put someone in a specific place, in a good way.
Well, this is probably overlong as it is, and I could say much more on the subject, but essentially I think what you have is quite amazing, in many ways, and I’d go for it and continue to explore. I’m not sure whether if it was me I’d be comfortable with some of the extremity – letting him “turn your tin into flesh” – without knowing in what capacity he was doing so…as your friend? Partner? Dom? I guess I would want to know what sort of commitment he envisioned for that, because I think you mentioned somewhere he didn’t want/feel able to commit (yet wanted you to…that confused me actually, for me commitment is a two way thing, and you mention both him not wanting to commit and him wanting you to commit in consecutive posts, I think, without mentioning whether he now wants to commit to you). And that sort of thing isn’t really something you do without commitment as /something/ – Dom, at least I guess. I think it’s more the commitment that he’ll stick by you, and commit to being your Dom while he tries to do this, and go to these places with you, and that even if you decide it won’t work, that he’ll be there even after that, for the aftercare of such a massive attempted internal change…I’m not quite sure what I’m trying to say, but I guess, so he’d be there if things go wrong and you stop this relationship, he’ll guide you back to ‘normalcy’ or ‘independence’, because if you try this, you may find that hard to do for yourself if it suddenly ends for some reason.
Anyway, I’ll look forward to reading more of how things develop, and I hope this comment isn’t too ridiculously long!
Kathryn
The comment is awesome – don’t ever worry about them being too long!
I think I confused more than just you with the commitment thing. Joscelin is not sure he can commit to me. I am committed to him, or willing to be committed to him, in one sense, but not in the way he needs to be able to commit back. He needs us both committed to a stable d/s dynamic, to put it simply. Neither of us is sure we can do that.
I agree that “turning tin into flesh” requires a commitment, and he would agree with that too, I think. Part of what this time right now is about is figuring out whether we want to, and whether we can, go forward with that.
He’s definitely committed to being my friend and taking care of me through whatever happens.
I share your concern about the interaction between degradation and god fantasies. That’s something that we need to talk more about. He never makes me feel bad or like “nothing” when we play, though.
Dev, if it feels good, do it – and the heck with what anyone else thinks, or whether what you have together fits into any predefined boxes or not ;->
Seriously, it sounds like the two of you really have a terrific relationship and it would be a shame to let it go. What I most don’t understand is how you consider yourselves “broken up”, but it’s not for me to understand, only you two.
I agree that humiliation and degradation *can* be dangerous, but as long as you two are negotiating things carefully, he is attentive to aftercare, whatever it takes, and you’re not finding yourself thinking it’s nonconsensual in a bad way – and you can stop it if you need to – if that’s what floats your boats, go for it.
I find it quite refreshing to hear someone else say they just want a relationship of whatever type with their partner, that it’s not dependent on being a particular format or dynamic, or calling whatever format it is by a particular name. You’re seeing the person you are with, not the role. Don’t ever lose that. I find it one of the very most sane things I’ve heard anyone say in all the years I’ve been in the scene.
I agree with the rest, don’t see any craziness here. R. and I have broken up and gotten back together so many times we must be drama queens too, but in the end we raelly love each other, and are just trying to find out what form of the relationship + d/s works. (Oh wait, this is not about me.) But the point is I see you both caring about each other greatly, communicating meaningfully, and watching out for the other’s emotional welfare. What’s crazy about that?
The thing that tweaked MY personal “oh noes!” button was hearing that X thinks you’re misguided. If Jos was reporting an off-hand comment, I’d understand, but I really think that considering she’s pretty new to both your live, she should butt out. Why is it her beeswax, and why should either of you worry about her view of your stuff? Also, the fact that you both think you’re crazy is irrelevant. In my view, all thoughtful people should wonder about their own comprehension of reality. ;)
Oh, and yes, humiliation play can be emotionally risky, but so can BDSM in general. Just got to find the line that works for you.
Hi, Dev. I’ve been following your blog for a while now, though I don’t think I’ve commented before. I’ve been really intrigued to see you tie C. S. Lewis in with BDSM, a connection that I would never have made but that makes a lot of sense. While you compare Jos’s role to that of God, there’s actually a lot of precedent in the Christian tradition for character-building through service to other people in general (“servanthood”), one’s spouse, and particularly to one’s *husband* by a *wife*. Of course I was taught that this is how one must always behave, especially in relation to those with authority (parents, clergy, etc.), and probably don’t need to explain why telling people never to stick up for their own rights can lead to problems. It’s always repulsed me at a very deep gut level, and incidentally led me to have rather mixed feelings about sex — submissive fantasies (which were the only ones I could conceive of) always came with an unpleasant aftertaste, and it’s no coincidence that the first time I orgasmed I was imagining what it would be like to be a man fucking a woman. But while I’ve categorically rejected that entire tradition in favor of autonomy, critiquing those in power, and choosing exactly where and when I want to do good in the world, it does have its tradeoffs. I’m lazy, undisciplined, probably a bit more selfish in personal relationships than I really want to be, and while I’ve never ever regretted my choices, I don’t know that my path in life is morally better than that of a woman who chose to “die to self” (or kill the ego, to bring in a different faith tradition with a similar idea) and make a habit of putting others’ needs before her own. I’m not sure it’s possible to judge between such different approaches to virtue at all. For example when Mother Theresa found herself in a world that seemed to have no God, she chose to commit herself to living as though there were one, and sticking by that commitment was a really hard path, which we can admire her for following. But we could just as easily say that she took the cowardly way out by not facing the truth and admitting to herself and others that she had no faith. That would have been extremely hard too — trading the virtue of obedience for the virtue of honesty. Maybe she happened to be sure about which choice was more virtuous, but not all of us can be. There have sure been times when I couldn’t tell the difference between selfishness and being true to my own moral sense.
Anyway, if the kind of person you’ll be transformed into is something you want to be, then I’d say, shoot for it! The manga/anime Fruits Basket has a story called The Most Foolish Traveler in the World which made really clear to me that I am just not interested in emulating the sort of virtuous person that should be my role model. But maybe I’d be a better person if I’d done so anyway, and I do admire anyone who’s willing to make that commitment.
(Sorry this is so rambly; my thoughts are refusing to organize themselves neatly, and I don’t have any more time to edit.)
Abigail, I basically have always rejected the same kind of stuff you reject, but it has an undeniable appeal. I don’t know. I don’t identify (or want to identify) with the Foolish Traveler but the past few days of focusing on gracious and willing submission have been just lovely.
Thanks to all of you for your detailed comments – I appreciated every single one.
Hi,
I’ve read your blog for some time, though I rarely comment. What does worry me is this bit:
“I’m attracted to the idea of someone being in a godlike role to me. I want to feel that someone deeply understands me, accepts me, and is strongly, irresistibly pushing me in a positive direction. I want someone to “turn my tin into flesh.” I want to be unable to lie or hide anything about myself. ”
This worries me partly because it is generally not possible for anyone to keep being godlike without occasionally doing damage – we (speaking of dominants, here) are not omniscient and omnipotent, and we will fuck up. If we’re unfortunate, it results in breaking the person relying on the divine power which we do not have. However much you trust Jos, you cannot trust him to be omniscient – no human being is.
It also worries me because of what this kind of power and responsibility can do to the person wielding it. It’s not just the corrupting influence of power I worry about; too much trust and responsibility can break a person. If you invest Jos with a godlike position, and this then turns out to harm you, he will have to carry the burden of that. So I must come down on the side of yes, this sounds a little too crazy to me. If Jos’s new lover, who seems experienced in BDSM, thinks what you’re doing is misguided, I would at the very least have a long talk and then a long think about what she says.
(Joscelin indicated that it was a given that I was welcome to post comments to your blog, so I hope this isn’t overstepping. I also encourage you to edit these as you like; it’s your forum, after all, which I respect.)
I don’t recall precisely how I expressed it. “Misguided” has a tone of condescension – which I don’t feel – yet lacks the connotation of apprehension, which I certainly do feel.
I recall an afternoon just a few weeks after I began seeing Joscelin. I sat on the floor and the three of us talked. I did my best to convey why I was scared. At the time, I was learning to love you both, and – based on some conversations we had – was feeling as though I was in the infant stages of a poly family. But I’d seen two “power struggles” (for lack of a better word) in two days, and was scared that I was becoming emotionally invested in a relationship that dissolve at any moment. I’ve since pulled back to a safe emotional distance (although as any war correspondent can tell you, there’s no way to be 100% safe unless you’re in another theater altogether).
With a renewed grip on my objectivity, I wanted to ask you about a couple of things which I don’t completely understand.
1 – Have you considered reading and talking to people to clarify for yourself what kind of relationship you want, and then looking for a partner who wants the same thing, rather than vise versa?
2 – What objection do you have with yourself as you are now? That is, why in the world would you want to change your fundamental makeup “tin” into someone else’s ideal anything?
3 – I think I understand the traits that Joscelin finds appealing in a submissive, as you describe them above. Are those the traits that you also find appealing in a submissive? If not, why would you aspire to them?
4 – Are you a TPE submissive, or partly inclined toward being a TPE submissive? If not, what’s your objection to enjoying the hell out of being sexually submissive in bed, and doing whatever you want with the rest of your time?
Disclaimer: I love that BDSM has as many variations as there are people who engage in it, and I’m always interested in learning and appreciating (read “grokking”) how those practices differ from mine. But sadly, my knowledge is only the product of my own experiences, and of those others have shared with me, so please, please forgive me if I have completely missed the point.
B’ahavah,
Mara
Hi Mara!
You are totally welcome to comment, and I’m glad to have the new moniker for you as well. I wouldn’t edit your comments unless you put my name in there or something :-) But I know that you wouldn’t.
I will try to answer your questions in a subsequent post – some I have very clear answers for and others (not unexpectedly) I do not.
Thanks for being around.
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