Richard, over on Fetish Meme, asks,
Do you think punishment – negative experiences – are the wisest course for instilling desired behavior in a slave / submissive person?
given that
For failure a master/mistress may choose to inflict punishment – physical or emotional pain or discomfort. Or positive reinforcement: affection and tenderness for pleasing behavior, accomplishing tasks. Or both.
(You can read the rest of the question here.)
I think there is an assumption here that I’m not completely in agreement with. It’s hard to tease apart, but I’ll try.
Let’s assume I’m in a relationship where I dictate a set of behaviors for my lover to follow. (This is in fact the case.) I then reinforce the desired behaviors with praise and/or punishment.
Is this happening (the whole scenario) because I simply require certain behaviors from a lover? Have I chosen a submissive lover because that’s the kind who will allow me to dictate the behaviors that I want?
In my case, no, not really. Rather, part of the hot domination consists of dictating and then reinforcing behaviors. And part of the hot submission consists of striving to obey, being judged, and the rest of it. But it’s the d/s that is the goal, not the behaviors.
For instance, Joscelin has to kneel when he hands me something in private. I chose this protocol because it’s pretty to look at, and it conveys a d/s dynamic. I enjoy it. But it’s not like kneeling to hand me something has some intrinsic value outside of that.
Richard raises the point that children who are punished often grow up angry and resentful, but this scenario is in fact the opposite of how I’d want to raise children. I am not interested in the obedience of children except insofar as it keeps them out of material trouble. (I want my child to obey me so if I say “stop!” they won’t run into the street, not because I want to raise an obedient child. I could give a fuck.)
So, yes, I have to consider what will be effective in changing Jos’s behavior in the right ways, but the behavior changes and the reinforcement both serve the d/s itself. A large part of the punishment question is about what’s hot and satisfying for us. What makes him feel controlled and me feel controlling? It needs to be effective so it doesn’t feel like a sham, or like just roleplaying (not that there’s anything wrong with that, if you want to), but…yeah.
I love watching this unfold in your mind, and I just wish I had more to contribute.
Then again, perhaps I should be thankful I don’t have much to contribute. I mean, I’ve spent a lot of time dealing with the problem of having WAY THE HELL TOO MUCH to contribute and no idea what to do about it, after all.
If you need any help, love, you know I’m always here.
[Note: I edited this comment to change the authorship to Jos. He must have posted this from my computer, where I was logged in as me. Confusing!]
Very interesting post..
I very much agree with your posting that its about the D/s element, the giving and following orders, or commands.
When I had Paladin fill out his ‘activity form’, the only two things he gave a ’5′ (highest possible answer) was ‘teasing’ (as in doing it for inspiring pleasure in the Mistress) and ‘following orders’. So.. I know that giving him tasks that he must accomplish, be those his daily tasks or something else (like sending Me a pic of his folks Christmas tree tonight) is something that he likes having to figure out how to do, else there are consequences. The first being dissapointment in him failing to do something that I wanted. And that is often enough of a consequence since he does work so hard to do what he is Commanded to do.
And we have certainly had our discussion of different styles of consequences. He can earn what I call ‘bonus points’ for other things, such as surprising Me with a handwritten love note. Or as I called it last nite to him a “get out of a spanking free card”. (smile)
We both know that sometimes he does things on purpose. And there are consequences for that as well. One of those things is being reticent when answering questions with very few words. I told him sometimes it’s like pulling teeth from a chicken to get some answers like that. Almost had him beliving that chickens had teeth. (wicked smile) Only American chickens maybe! But those are things that can cause Me to get exasperated with him and certainly give him a few spontaneous stinging swats on his backside. He knows just how far he can go or else I will have him ‘assume the position’. He really is the one in control of what happens to a large degree because he knows what the consequences to certain behaviors is well in advance, so HE chooses whether he gets disciplined to a large degree, not Me.
There is to Me a difference between ‘discipline’ and ‘punishment’. Discipline tends to be lighter I think.. more of a correction. Punishment is when he has done something I feel is much more severly wrong or specifically not somethign he knows is very important to Me. The difference between forgetting something because he was so crazy busy with life to do (like texting his erotic thought for the day), as opposed to copping an sullen attitude or being reticent about his actual feelings on something important.
And as for praise…well, pet gets lots and lots of that from Me on a very regular basis.
I gotta say, I like the idea of the kneeling bit while being handed something very nice. I think I will incorporate that into our interactions as well – if you don’t mind My borrowing it from you. Certainly one of the wonderful things about learning things from each other!
Best to you both,
Mystress